Episode 17: Do I Have to Pay Taxes on My Social Security Income?

John Bever |

TYYR Episode 17: Do I Have to Pay Taxes on My Social Security Income?

Join hosts John Bever and Jim Uren in episode 17 of The Year You Retire podcast as they tackle the crucial question: "Do I have to pay taxes on my Social Security income?" This episode dives deep into the intricacies of how the IRS handles Social Security in retirement, offering valuable insights on how to minimize or even eliminate these taxes. The duo also sheds light on the infamous "Social Security tax torpedo," explaining how it can significantly impact your tax bill and what you can do to avoid it.

Listen in for practical advice, historical trivia, and key strategies to navigate Social Security taxation and help get the most out of your Social Security income. Don’t miss the final episode of season one as John and Jim prepare for an exciting season two with more relevant and helpful information for your retirement planning journey.

In this episode, you will…

Learn to Maximize Your Retirement Income by Understanding Social Security Taxation.
Discover How to Navigate the Social Security Tax Torpedo and Keep More Money in Your Pocket.
Learn Effective Strategies to Help Minimize Taxes and Get More Out of Your Retirement Nest Egg.
Understand How Provisional Income Impacts Your Social Security Tax Bill in Retirement.
Discover the Potential Benefits of Delaying Social Security Benefits to Help Manage Your Taxes.
The key moments in this episode are:

00:00:05 - Introduction to the Year You Retire Podcast

00:00:52 - Taxation of Social Security Income

00:01:09 - Understanding the Social Security Tax Torpedo

00:06:11 - Provisional Income and Tax Thresholds

00:12:10 - Observations and Planning Opportunities

00:15:35 - Understanding the Tax Code

00:16:54 - Tax Brackets and Marginal Tax Rate

00:18:07 – More on the Tax Torpedo

00:21:05 - Strategies to Minimize Taxes

00:27:43 - Gratitude Segment

00:30:39 - Accessing Show Notes and Transcripts

00:30:53 - Conclusion and Disclaimer


Jim Uren: This is The Year You Retire podcast for people who want their first year of retirement to be right on the money. Your hosts are me, Jim Uren and John Bever, CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER™ professionals with Phase 3 Advisory Services. Retirement is one of the happiest times of life, but getting the most out of it requires you to be properly prepared.

Listen along as we explore the financial topics, tips, and strategies that will help you make your first year of retirement your best year yet. Now let's get planning.

John Bever: Welcome to episode 17 of The Year You Retire podcast. Today we'll be answering the question, “Do I have to pay taxes on my Social Security income?” And like many topics we discuss on this show, the answer will depend on a variety of factors. So listen along to discover how the IRS treats Social Security income in retirement and the steps you can take to help minimize or possibly eliminate the tax on your Social Security income.

And we'll also be discussing something many call the Social Security tax torpedo, which if it hits you can result in a large increase in the tax you pay on additional income in retirement. So be sure to listen to this entire episode to learn the steps you can take to help protect yourself from this tax torpedo.

Hey, Jim, good seeing you today.

Jim Uren: Good to see you. Good to see you.

John Bever: Yeah, good to see our audience. You know, we're imagining all of you out there listening to us and you're just sitting on the edge of your seat because we all want to know how to lower our taxes. A very popular topic.

Jim Uren: That's right, and certainly in that year you retire, Social Security may be turned on, or it may be being turned on soon. And how it gets taxed is certainly a relevant topic to about 99% of the retirement population. So a key topic that I think will be helpful to many.

John Bever: Indeed. So, Jim, get us started.

Jim Uren: Sure. So I want to just give a quick moment here to give an update on the podcast. So as John mentioned, this is our 17th episode. It's also the last episode of what we're calling season one of The Year You Retire podcast. So we're, we're now entering that time where we're going to have to shift to the planning of our next season, which we will start to release later on in the year.

So certainly if you happen to have any suggestions as listeners for topics or guests, we would invite you to share those with us. We'd love to hear them as we plan that next season. We want to make sure the topics we cover are very relevant to you as you prepare for that year, you retire.

John Bever: Right. And since this is the first season and we're calling it the first season, then there will be a second season, won't there, Jim?

Jim Uren: That is certainly the plan. So we're, we're excited about it, but it does take time to do some prep and plan that season out. So we're looking forward to that and getting recording started so we can be back later this year with some relevant, helpful information. So let's hop into our trivia time.

So you may remember the first Social Security check was actually paid to a woman named Ida May Fuller in 1940. Now at that time, those were the good old days, at that time Social Security benefits were actually not taxed at the federal level. Today, of course, many retirees do pay taxes on their Social Security retirement benefits.

So the question is, what was the first year that Social Security retirement benefits were actually subject to taxation? Was it…

So what year was Social Security first subject to taxation?

John Bever: And I have a hint for the audience. Because I remember I was practicing when that change took place. That's all I'll say.

Jim Uren: Ah, so the answer is 1923. [Laughing]

John Bever: You're so kind, Jim. You're so kind. It was 1919.

Jim Uren: [Laughing] Well, of course the answer is C, 1984. So in an effort to help shore up the financial stability of the Social Security system, Congress passed this new rule, actually overwhelmingly on a bipartisan vote, which apparently that used to happen, and President Reagan actually signed it into law.

So that was 1984. And actually about 10 years later, they increased the rate at which Social Security gets taxed, but that is a different story.

John Bever: Yes, indeed. And, so a lot of things have changed since then. And I guess the question for this episode is Jim, how do you know if your Social Security income will be taxed in retirement? And, and knowing Congress, it has changed a little bit, but I'm assuming it's a really simple, straightforward formula.  It was back in 1984.

Jim Uren: [Laughing] Wouldn’t that be nice John. Or maybe not so nice, we might not have a job if Congress kept things easy, right?

Unfortunately, no, the way the rules work is that to find out if you're subject to any taxation on your Social Security, you have to determine what is called your provisional income.

Now to calculate your provisional income, you add together just three things. First, the total income from all taxable sources.  For example, that might be an IRA withdrawal, pension income, taxable interest you might have. Second item is, that's used to determine your provisional income, is any non-taxable interest. So that most typically would be interest earned on a municipal bond.

So as our listeners may know, most municipal bonds are exempt from federal income taxes, so municipal bond interest would not show up in your adjusted gross income figure on your tax return. And so that's why they include it as a second item in determining this provisional income.

The third item in determining your provisional income is to add in half, that's 50%, of your Social Security benefits.

So to determine your provisional income, you add together your additional sources of income, all taxable income, your non-taxable interest that you earn from municipal bonds, and then you take half of your Social Security benefits and you add all that together and that gives you what we call your provisional income.

John Bever: OK. So once you know your provisional income, which again does include non-taxable municipal interest. Then you can determine how much of your Social Security benefits may be taxed. So Jim, explain to us then how the tax works.

Jim Uren: Well after you know that provisional income amount, you first determine if you're exempt from paying taxes on your Social Security income.

Now, this part is a little bit straightforward, surprisingly. And basically if you are single and your provisional income amount is less than $25,000, then none of your Social Security income benefits are taxable, which is wonderful.

Now, likewise, if you're married filing a joint tax return, if your provisional income is less than $32,000, then also your benefits are not taxable. So those are the thresholds, under $25,000 for single, under $32,000 for married filing jointly. If your provisional income is below those numbers, Uncle Sam will not tax you at all on your Social Security benefits, which is wonderful.

However, if your provisional income does exceed those amounts, then you're going to be shoved into one of two tax tiers. If you're single and your provisional income is between $25,000 and $34,000, then up to half of your Social Security benefits may be subject to tax. And of course, if you're single and your provisional income is above that $34,000, then you might have to pay tax on up to 85% of your Social Security benefits.

Similarly, for married couples filing a joint return, if your provisional income is above that initial $32,000 but less than $44,000, then up to half of your Social Security benefits may be subject to taxation. And if your provisional income is above that $44,000 threshold, then you may pay tax on up to 85% of your Social Security benefits.

Again, that's not an 85% tax rate. That just means that 85% of your Social Security income would be reported on your tax return and subject to normal taxation.

So bottom line, depending on your overall financial situation, the IRS may not tax any of your Social Security benefits.  Or they may make you claim up to 85% of your Social Security income on your tax return, which they then will, of course, subject to taxation.

So I want to stop here for a moment to just make some comments and observations on how that works. So John, why don't you share a comment or observation?

John Bever: Yeah, so this gets into an area that we call stealth tax increases. So that provisional income limit, $25,000 for single, $32,000 for joint, has not changed for decades. In other words, there's no increase in that number for cost of living increases for inflation. So in reality, people 30 years ago had a much larger portion of their income in retirement that was not subject to the Social Security tax torpedo than today.

And the reason is because it has not been adjusted for inflation. And so this reaches into more and more of your income being taxed for income tax purposes, taxing that Social Security income, and it really creates a tax hit to those retirees a little bit at a time.  Every year it's just a little bit more, but it is that increased tax hit, which is why so many retirees feel like, oh my goodness. I just feel like I'm getting squeezed every year just a little bit more and more.

Jim Uren: Excellent point, yes. And each year, of course, down the road, more and more people will be subject to taxation on their Social Security benefits because they're not increasing those amounts for inflation, which is frustrating.

The other thing you'll probably notice is that there's an obvious marriage penalty.  So the provisional income for married couples is not twice what it is for a single person.  A married couple starts paying tax on their Social Security much sooner. For example, if each member of a couple were to collect $20,000 a year in Social Security benefits and take $15,000 each out of their IRA, then that non-married couple actually would not pay any tax on their Social Security benefits.

But that same couple, if they decided to get married, then they would pay tax on over $11,000 of their benefits. And in this case, they would be in a 10% tax bracket. So that would amount to a tax bill of $1,100. So a married couple in this scenario pays over a thousand dollars more a year compared to a virtually identical couple who is not married.

Now, I will say, in all fairness, that married couples also do receive some additional benefits, potentially, from Social Security by being married. So, for example, if your spouse dies and they had a higher benefit than yours, you do get to start taking their benefit after their death, which, of course, non-married couples would not be able to do.

But even so, there is obviously a marriage penalty. And so those married couples may pay a lot higher tax bill over the course of their lifetime, uh, before any of those perks kick in for being married.

Any other thoughts or observations, John?

John Bever: Yeah, they only tax up to 85%. They're not taxing 100% percent yet. They might.  That might be one of the solutions to help the Social Security trust fund, which is scheduled to run out of money sometime in the 2030s. We'll see.

But, this also creates a planning opportunity to possibly delay benefits to age 70. To have a few years where you're not subject to that tax.

And it's interesting on up to 85% taxable, because I remember one of the original explanations that I heard from a Social Security expert, why they would tax any of your Social Security was that the company portion that's paid into Social Security is a tax deduction to the company. And so that money hasn't been taxed by the federal government. The company doesn't pay a tax on it and nor does the employee. Now the employee is in essence paying tax on the tax that they pay into Social Security, their portion, but not the company portion. But still, it's half that the company pays and yet they're taxing 85% of the benefit. 

I don't know. We're getting into the weeds here, Jim. Any other thoughts?

Jim Uren: It's a good point. But like you said, you would think the tax rate would be a little bit lower. And who knows if that day will come when they just simply tax up to 100% of benefits. That wouldn't be a surprise given some of the challenges that Social Security and Medicare and our budget in general face.

But as of right now, it's still a tax advantage income. It's better to get an extra $1,000 in Social Security benefits in retirement than earn an extra $1,000 from most other sources, because even if you're a Bill Gates, Elon Musk, or Warren Buffett, you're still only going to pay tax on 85% of your Social Security benefits and not a 100%.  At least right now.

John Bever: Exactly right. Okay. So now let's take a look at that Social Security tax torpedo. So, Jim, would you explain what is meant by the tax torpedo?

Jim Uren: Yes. So the concept of the Social Security tax torpedo refers to the sharp increase in taxable income that can occur when a larger portion of your Social Security benefits are taxed as a result of your other income rising.

Now this is a pretty difficult concept to explain in an audio format, but I'm going to give it a try here. So I'm going to explain three concepts that I hope will pull this all together. So let's give it a shot.

First, let's look at how Social Security is taxed like we just talked about. It's helpful, I think, to think about it this way. Under our current tax code in the U.S., income, of course, is generally taxable.  And, of course, the more income you make, typically the higher tax rate you pay.

However, the current tax code gives us a discount on the taxes we would otherwise pay on your Social Security income. That's what we were just talking about. Worst case scenario, you don't pay tax on 15% of your benefit. Best case, you don't pay tax on any of your benefit.

If your other income is quite large, of course, that discount they give you on your Social Security benefits is quite small. If your other income is rather small. then the discount they give you on your Social Security taxes can be quite large. And in fact, as we mentioned, it can be as large as 100% discount on the taxes you might otherwise pay on your Social Security benefits.  So think about the tax code giving a potential discount to your Social Security income.

Okay. Second concept. Let's talk about tax brackets. Tax brackets is simply a range of income subject to a particular income tax rate in any progressive tax system. For example, like we have in the U. S. So all of your taxable income is divided into what we often call buckets at Phase 3, we'll call segments, but each segment or bucket has its own tax rate.

So for example, in 2024, the first roughly $23,000 of taxable income that a married couple earns will be taxed at a rate of 10%. The next roughly $61,000 they earn will be taxed at a rate of 12% and the next roughly $107,000 they earn will be taxed at a rate of 22%. And that continues on. So the more money they make, they fill up that bucket or that segment and then it bleeds over into the next bucket or segment.

And each of those different segments has an increasingly higher tax rate up until a maximum tax rate of 37%. So even the wealthiest couple in the U. S. still only pays a 10% tax rate on that first $23,000 of income. So that's what it means by a tax bracket. Keep that in mind. That's the second concept.

Third concept is your marginal tax rate. That is the percentage you pay on additional amount of income earned. So additional income earned always gets added, of course, into the income segment or tax bucket with the highest rate.

So, for example, if a client tells John that she's considering withdrawing an extra $1,000 from her IRA this year, and she wants to know how much extra taxes that might require her to pay at the federal level.  Normally, John would simply look up her highest tax bracket and then apply that rate to that $1,000.

So for example, if she's only in a 10% tax bracket and she withdrew an extra thousand dollars from her IRA, At the end of the year, we would expect in normal situations, she would incur an extra $100 in federal income taxes on that $1,000 withdrawal.  Therefore, her tax bracket is 10%, and so is her marginal tax bracket is also 10%. They're the same in most circumstances.

But this is where the torpedo comes into play. If this client is also collecting Social Security, that extra $1,000 in additional income may cause her to also lose some of the tax discount that she receives on her Social Security income.

So, for example, that extra $1,000 of income may require her to pay tax on an extra $850 of Social Security income. So an extra $1,000 IRA withdrawal means that she'll pay a 10% tax on, not only that $1,000 withdrawal from her IRA, but she's also going to have to pay 10% on an extra $850 of her Social Security income.  So that's a combined extra tax on income of $1,850, which basically at 10% means she's paid an extra $185 of tax as a result of a $1,000 withdrawal. That means that a, her marginal tax bracket is 18.50%.

Now, remember she's only in a 10% tax bracket and yet she pulls out this $1,000 and she's got to pay 18.50% extra tax as a result.  And that's pretty high for someone who's in a relatively low annual tax bracket.

John Bever: So the 10% bracket can effectively be 18.50%. 12% tax bracket can effectively be 22% And if we get that sunset on the tax code in 2026, and the 12% bracket becomes a 15% bracket, the effective rate at the 15% bracket level is almost 28%. So in your example, Jim, basically she gets taxed on the extra IRA withdrawal and she loses some of her tax discount on her Social Security benefit. Wow. And that double whammy is what we call the tax torpedo.

Jim Uren: Exactly. And that double whammy or tax torpedo can mean she pays a higher marginal tax rate than someone else who actually is much wealthier and earns a significantly higher income than she does. They pull out an extra $1,000 they might not pay 18%. Maybe they pay only 15%. So that's how that tax torpedo can hit you.

John Bever: So I like to explain it this way. Think of what a torpedo does to a ship, right? It blows a hole in the ship. Unless they hit the fuel section, the whole ship doesn't blow up. It just blows a section out. And so that's what's really happening with this tax torpedo. It's kind of blowing a hole in the middle of your income. It doesn't blow it all up, but it adds that extra, that extra hit there. And we want to avoid that if at all possible.

So Jim, what are some ways to minimize or avoid taxes on Social Security income, including this tax torpedo? What's the first strategy?

Jim Uren: Yeah, so one of the first strategies to kind of go with this scenario we talked about is if the client needs an extra $1,000, we often look to see if there might be some alternative sources of income if that client particularly is subject to that tax torpedo. For example, if this particular client also had some money in a Roth IRA, we could pull out $1,000 from that Roth IRA and that would not result in any additional taxable income, and so she would be able to avoid getting hit with any extra taxes, including that tax torpedo.

Alternatively, maybe she has another account and maybe we have to get hit with some capital gains taxes to get that $1,000, but it still might be a much lower amount of taxable income than she'd get, if she took money out of the IRA.  In which case she still may be subject to the tax torpedo, but the damage may be quite a bit less.

So that's one of the things that we do is when a client needs additional funds, we first find out if they're likely to get hit with the tax torpedo. And if so, what might we do to either avoid it or at least minimize the damage. So that's one strategy that we sometimes use.

John, any other strategies that come to mind?

John Bever: Well, yeah, since this is The Year You Retire podcast, we may have a lot of our listeners who have not yet started taking Social Security. And so delaying Social Security means you're not going to be subject to that tax torpedo because you don't even have that Social Security income in there. And that can create an opportunity to get more money into your Roth IRA via a Roth conversion.

Even though you're not working, you can still get money into your Roth IRA by converting money from your IRA to your Roth. When you move money from the IRA to the Roth, you are going to pay tax on that move, but you're not going to get hit with a Social Security tax torpedo because you're not collecting Social Security.

And we oftentimes like the strategy of taking delayed credits on Social Security, delaying that benefit to age 70. And so it can open up several years of being able to take advantage of that particular strategy.

Jim, can you actually talk then about IRA withdrawals kind of on the opposite end, where you're taking Social Security, you're subject to the tax torpedo, and someone's actually going to take a large IRA withdrawal or even a Roth conversion?

Jim Uren: Yeah, so that sometimes happens, and so sometimes it's unavoidable. Some years you just need a large chunk of money because everything that can go wrong does.  And you just need money. And so what sometimes will happen, of course, is once you're actually at that point where 85% of your Social Security income is fully taxable, you actually are no longer subject to the tax torpedo.

In other words, that tax torpedo only hits those people in the middle who get some sort of a discount. But once you don't get any additional discount than what you get normally, which is 15% of your Social Security benefits are not taxable. Once you're at that point, it may make sense actually to withdraw some extra money from your IRAs that year, or maybe you realize some capital gains.

In other words, it may make sense to actually increase your income in a year like that, beyond what you may need. So that, in future years where you might otherwise be subject to the tax torpedo, you've got other income sources that you can rely upon that will not generate additional taxes and therefore get hit by the tax torpedo.

So in other words, if you're going to get hit anyway, let's just take all the damage at once so that we don't actually make things worse in future years. So that's another strategy that you can use to help minimize the tax torpedo.

Any other closing thoughts, John, on taxation of Social Security or strategies one might consider?

John Bever: Yeah, along those lines, I've had a situation where we've utilized that strategy in order to really eliminate future income and even being subject to the tax torpedo. It has to be the right set of circumstances.

And the other thing is, it's not necessarily fair. It's interesting.  I've got a client where they've got about $65,000 worth of Social Security income and really not much else. They're not paying any tax at all because of the $32,000 threshold and then the high level of standard deduction right now. And that's because their income is from Social Security.

Another couple has income of about the same amount, almost no Social Security. They were in actually ministry and have almost no Social Security income. And they're paying a lot more tax. So the tax system is not necessarily fair. It's something that they come up with that gets applied to everybody. And sometimes it's fair and sometimes it's not.

And because of that, this type of planning for our, pre-retirees and retirees is a big part of what we do. We've got software, a lot of programs that we use to help us make these calculations so we can do it quickly and accurately and do projections. So we love working with people at this stage of life because there really is a lot of flexibility in how we manage the tax piece of their financial plan over several years.

And when we can find some of those tax savings, that's what we call tax alpha. And we love when we can get tax alpha cause we're disinheriting uncle Sam.

Jim Uren: Yes. And of course, with this, as you mentioned, John, there's kind of two things.

One of course is the individual tax year. So like in a case where the client needs extra money, we've got our analysis that we'll do to figure out how to minimize taxes that year. But then that's where the financial plan comes in.  When we do a financial plan for a client to be able to rely on that because, again, it's one thing to figure out how much taxes you owe this year. But we're trying to minimize your taxes over your lifetime. And sometimes that might mean paying a little bit extra this year than you might otherwise have to.  But that's okay, if paying a couple extra dollars this year saves you five to ten dollars over the next few years, you're better off.

And so underneath all of this is the assumption that you do some good planning to make sure that you can really extract as much wealth as possible out of Social Security, out of your IRAs, out of all your sources of income.

And that's really, as you mentioned, John, what we like to do. We like to look at the full big picture and figure out how to maximize every dollar as much as possible.

Well, I want to now lead us into the last segment we like to do on the podcast and that is our thankful segment or gratitude segment. So John, what are you thankful for today?

John Bever: Well, I am thankful for small town USA. My wife, Pam and I, for a couple of years now, have drawn a circle about two, two and a half hours from our home, and we go and explore some of these little towns. And I tell you what's really amazing, because a lot of them are along the rivers, these used to be pretty bustling towns a hundred years ago when there was a lot of manufacturing in the Midwest.  And there was easy movement along the rivers of the goods, the raw products and the goods, and just got me thinking about how thankful I am for industry that developed in our country.

And even though we offshored a lot of that, now we're on shoring, bringing some of that back. So I'm just really thankful for our capitalism system and, uh, you know, how things do move back and forth in these small towns that really kept America humming for so many years.

That's what I'm thankful for today.

Jim Uren: Excellent. Mine is somewhat related. This last weekend, we took the younger two kids, who just finished second grade, hard to believe, and we went to one of those touch the trucks kind of events where they bring in all the emergency vehicles. And it was a lot of fun. And it just made me really thankful for the work a lot of these emergency folks do and often risk their lives to do it.

And of course the kids had a great time climbing in the trucks and all that. And as adults, the big takeaway for us is you realize just how boring your job is. When they explain how they cut a hole in the roof to let the smoke out or how they get the bomb sniffing dog to… you're like, “Wow, I sit at a desk.”

John Bever: Yeah.

Jim Uren: But it did make me very thankful for, for these folks and especially that they take the time every so often to hang out with the kids, show them what they do. And our kids had a great time and I think the adults have just as much fun at a lot of these events too.

John Bever: Oh, yeah. You know, along those lines, Pam and I stopped into the Caterpillar Museum in Peoria. And it is fascinating because they have, I think it's called the 797 dump truck. That's the one where the wheels are actually taller than you. These things are absolutely enormous.

They have one in there and, in fact, they put a theater in the bed of that truck. It's that big. And they have a bunch of the control handles. They don't move anything, but you get to feel for what they're like. It's a really great place for kids and grandkids. So putting in a plug for the Caterpillar Museum.

Jim Uren: Nice. We'll have to check it out.

Well, thank you all so much for listening, not only to this episode, but to this season, season one of The Year You Retire podcast. We hope you found it helpful and informative. If so, we'd appreciate it if you could share your favorite episode with a friend.  It can be a great way to help them be better prepared for the year they retire.

And of course, if you have any questions or if you need any assistance in preparing for, or getting through, or even the years after you retire, that's what we're here for. We would love to hear from you. Happy to do a phone call with you to touch base and answer some of your questions.

Also, if you are interested in a transcript of this episode and show notes, you can visit our website at phase3advisory.com/podcast. That's phase3advisory.com/podcast.

Thanks again for listening to everyone. And we'll look forward to you joining us again next season.

Disclosure: The views expressed in this podcast are not necessarily the opinions of Phase 3 Advisory Services or Osaic Wealth and should not be construed directly or indirectly as an offer to buy or sell any securities or services mentioned herein.  Unless otherwise specified, show guests are not securities licensed or affiliated with Phase 3 Advisory Services or Osaic Wealth.   Investing is subject to risks, including loss of principal invested. Past performance is not a guarantee of future results.

No strategy can assure profit nor protect against loss. Please note that individual situations can vary. Therefore, the information should only be relied upon when coordinated with individual professional advice.  Securities offered through Osaic Wealth, Inc. member FINRA/SIPC.  Additional investment. and insurance advisory services offered through Phase 3 Advisory Services Limited, a Registered Investment Advisor.

Osaic Wealth is separately owned and other entities and or marketing names, products or services referenced here are independent of Osaic Wealth. Phase 3 Advisory Services is located at 1110 West Lake Cook Road, Suite 265 in Buffalo Grove, Illinois 60089. Our phone number is 847-520-5545. For additional information, visit our website at phase3advisory.com.